Link to article: THOMPSON v WILLIAMS: ANMORMONISM DEBATE.
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[[>]] [[module Rate]] [[/>]] [[div class="blockquote"]] +++ ATHL-102/S2: Modern Religion and The Anomalous ++++ Taught by Dr. Jason Yates[[footnote]] LV2 Clearance, He/They, Office Hours 3-5PM Wednesdays and Sundays at Site Γ-33, Office 224. [[/footnote]][[footnote]] Don't get too excited about the topic, since you can't tell anyone outside our beloved curtain about what you're learning. Expect more of this wit. [[/footnote]] > ++++++ **ANNOUNCEMENT** (4/28/2019) > As a personal situation has made it impossible for me to attend class or record a lecture, please take notes on the following debate. I'm sure some of you have seen this floating around, SCiPNET loves showing my students these debates, but Dr. Enoch Thompson's debate with Dr. Lehi Williams on Anmormonism Theory is extremely thought-provoking. Please send in the notes you take on this. 3-4 pages, double spaced, 12-point Times New Roman font. [[/div]] [[div class="blockquote"]] [[div class="blockquote"]] **PERSONNEL PRESENT:** - **Dr. Enoch Thompson:** Opposed to Anmormonism Theory. Doctor of of New Testament Biblical Studies, Anomalous Christianity & Judaism in the Roman Empire, and Mormon Studies - **Dr. Lehi Williams:** Supporter of Anmormonism Theory. Doctor of Mormon Studies. - **Harold Davis:** Debate Moderator **BACKGROUND:** Hosted at Site Γ-33 for the semi-annual Academic Anomalous Christianities Conference. [[/div]] **<TRANSCRIPT BEGINS>** **HAROLD DAVIS:** Hey-- //(Taps the microphone.)// Welcome to the Conference, everyone. Today we got a really good debate going on here tonight. In one corner, we have Dr. Enoch Thompson, our lovely Biblical, and important to this debate, Book of Mormon Scholar, straight from the University of Utah! He'll be opposing Anmormonism Theory, which is being defended by our lovely Dr. Lehi Williams. Educated at Brigham Young University for Mormon Studies... Can we give them both a big applause? //(Scattered applause can be heard in the recording.)// **HAROLD DAVIS:** Lovely, lovely. So, before we really get into the weeds here, I just wanna make sure... Enoch, you and Lehi agreed on a definition for Anmormonism Theory to codify before the debate, just so it doesn't get into semantics, right? **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Yeah. You get the notecard, or want me to say it? **HAROLD DAVIS:** //(Patting down his pockets.)// No, I have it. //(Pulls a small note card out of his pocket, adjusting his glasses slightly.)// Right. "Anmormonism Theory: The scholarly notion that the Mormon religion was influenced in some way by an anomalous force." Sound about right? **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Eeyup. **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Exactly right. **HAROLD DAVIS:** Lovely, lovely-- So, we're going to give both of our debaters ten minutes max to establish their opening arguments, then we can let a dialogue flow openly between them for about, say, ten minutes? We'll open the floor to questions if the debate doesn't run too long, since I just //know// Josh and his lecture are itching to get up on this stage, and we got thirty minutes for this. //(Scattered laughs can be heard.)// **HAROLD DAVIS:** Lehi, would you please take the stage and set it for us? **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Of course. //(She stands, walking to the front of the stage.)// Now, I'm going to assume all of you are familiar with the basic story of Joseph Smith through basic cultural osmosis, but I'm going to propose to you here today another interpretation of the events that happened almost 196 years ago, when the Prophet claimed he found the golden plates containing the 16, including the lost Book of Lehi, texts comprising the Book of Mormon. On the night of September 22nd, 1822, Joseph Smith awoke late at night for whatever reason, and found himself face to face with a figure that was beyond his comprehension. He, as most people who had no knowledge of the reality of the supernatural, interpreted this as a sign from God. Specifically, he thought it was a messenger angel sent down for him. How else would a man from a religious family in the eighteen-hundreds, with //no// easy informational access, interpret this kind of event? He dug into his backyard at night, discovering the plates, and realizing that with a method he had used previously to childishly hunt for treasure, he instead translated the words of the plates. The thing here is-- We know that the seer stone holds some anomalous effect. The //exact// effect hasn't been studied, because of some tensions with being able to access the stone for research, but I'm sure talks in the future will allow it to be further studied. My argument here today, fundamentally, is the anomalous nature of Latter-Day Saint, or //Mormon// more generally, theology. I don't think that the seer stone being able to translate an ancient language is at all an improbable anomaly, in fact, it's relatively minor. It would've been easy for the layfolk to not notice, and likely was something that Joseph Smith discovered by mistake. Alright-- I'll turn it over to Enoch at this point. //(She takes her seat.)// **HAROLD DAVIS:** Right-- Well, thank you Lehi! Enoch, your ten minutes start now. **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** //(He walks up to the microphone, coughing slightly into a handkerchief.)// Right. I'm also going to assume that people know generally about the origins of Mormonism myth. I think that there's no real, distinctly provable basis for Anmormonism Theory. I've been a detractor for a while, wrote a book on the thing debunking it-- "The Origins of Mormonism and The Improbability of Anomalous Influence." A bit wordy but gets the point across. If you've read it, you'll know the general points I'm gonna be pushing. I think that it's unreasonable to assume that the Mormon Church was founded on the anomalous when there's much more obvious methods for it to have been founded, ones that explain the seemingly unnatural aspects of the Church and don't require assuming the words of a known con-man are things that should be taken as literally true because one thing that he used in his life has a minor anomalous effect that we cannot confirm in any way, shape, or form. There's serious reason to doubt the words of Joseph Smith too-- Let me put forth the fact that he fled Ohio to avoid being arrested for banking fraud, that he fled Illinois to avoid going to trial for treason, and later his destruction of the //Nauvoo Expositor// paper through his militia and declaring martial law, which almost got him arrested by the state militia of Illinois... It's disingenuous to propose this sort of thing, because we know that Joseph Smith was a criminal. Dr. Williams, you even pointed out a case of this with his early treasure-hunting, using the very same seer stone that he then used to allegedly translate the plates, we can see that Joseph Smith had a history of lying, scamming, and other such things. //(He checks his watch.)// Alright, I'll turn over my time to the next segment. We'll need a bit more time for the debate anyways, what with me and Lehi's track record. **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Don't flatter yourself. **HAROLD DAVIS:** Right-- Let's open this up to a nice conversational flow. Remember to give your opposition adequate time to answer your questions. **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Well, Enoch, let's take a look. I think that we need to consider the fact that he was never actually found guilty for any of these alleged crimes. Frankly, I find it a little inappropriate that you go straight for attacking Joseph Smith's credibility rather than facing my actual points. **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** I don't think it's at all inappropriate to direct questions toward the credibility of a known, or even if you insist, //suspected// con-man. Even though there is a minor anomaly, I don't think that we can reasonably say that because Joe Smith had a slightly magical rock, he also got visited by an entity that he interpreted as an angel and also found real golden plates. In the order of events that you're proposing, Lehi, what happens to the supposed plates? **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** We can't exactly say. I'd say they likely disappeared in an anomalous event, matching Joseph Smith's interpretation of them being taken into the heavens by God. It could be that they were also not entirely physical, or perhaps held some antimemetic property that kicked in-- There's any number of things that it could be, and match eyewitness testimony of the plates. **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Oh, so we're gonna go into eyewitnesses, are we? **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** We are, yes. Eleven men other than Joseph Smith saw the plates, and their testimony was recorded. None of the men ever recanted their testimony. **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Yeah, alright, we can get into this whole thing again. Just like I told you last time, these witnesses //are not reliable//. Let's start with the eight witnesses. Joseph Smith got his brother and father to sign, along with some of his earliest adherents, the Whitmers. Need I remind you that all of the living Whitmers were excommunicated by Joseph Smith? **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Yes, but they never recanted their testimony. Is that not something? **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Then why didn't they keep practicing despite their excommunication? Why didn't they try and get back into the church if they still believed the plates were real? They all converted to different churches after that! Also, what, did you expect them to send out a tweet to all the Mormons? There's no damn good way that they could've recanted their testimony-- **HAROLD DAVIS:** Please remember this is an academic conference. **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Yeah-- Look, Lehi, I don't get what point you're trying to make here. You cannot say that these witnesses were reliable! I'll concede on the three witnesses, because all of them kept their testimony, but David Whitmer formed his //own// offshoot church, Oliver Cowdery transcribed the book, and Martin Harris didn't believe in some of the core Mormon doctrines! **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Even if //some// of the witnesses are unreliable, does a difference in opinion matter when the overwhelmingly important thing about this is that their trust in the fact they saw the plates was never recanted. We can reasonably say that the plates existed-- We have people who touched the plates, albeit covered in cloth! We have a reliable standard to indicate that likely, these plates existed at some point! **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Reliable standard? //Reliable standard?// Nobody outside of Smith and his witnesses saw these plates, a majority of the eight witnesses were excommunicated, the three witnesses are all untrustworthy, with their own biases-- It's not that unbelievable to think that Joe Smith made plates that couldn't pass visual inspection, so he came up with this whole thing to keep faith and still have something physical to present to his followers! **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Well, if you want to just fully discount the idea of the golden plates, then let’s talk about Moroni! We can trace some remnants from his visit to Joseph Smith and— **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** You can trace it how, Lehi? **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** If you let me finish, we can trace it through the preliminary use of Akiva radiation, which we then use to— **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Lehi, you know as well as I that Akiva radiation is the biggest hoax in Foundation history. It’s up there with //polygraphs// for how effective they are at actually measuring the level of religious faith in any given thing. I mean— seventy years ago, they did an entire mega study on this, results on the same object were inconsistent, and— **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** What study are you talking about? **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** “Analysis of Akiva Radiation Tests”, 1947, by Reynold Pope. It’s a fairly conclusive study that Akiva radiation doesn’t actually work to measure— **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** If it’s such a conclusive study then why have //I// never heard of it, Eno— **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** I know damn well that you have, because I have told you about— **HAROLD DAVIS:** I think we're starting to get caught on this one //really aggressive// snag, and we're actually starting to run out of time... You guys think you could wrap this up quick, give a little closing statement for us? **DR. LEHI WILLIAMS:** Yes. I think that I've shown a good argument for the potential anomalous origins of the LDS church and any offshoots. Thank you for your time, everyone, and I'm excited to see the next lecture you got for us Josh. **DR. ENOCH THOMPSON:** Yeah, yeah, I can-- //(He clears his throat.)// I think that I've refuted many, if not most, of the points that Lehi has raised for Anmormonism Theory. I do not believe the evidence gives us enough of a reason to believe in an anomalous origin for this, through simple application of Occam's Razor. Why assume the anomalous when we have naturalistic explanations? **HAROLD DAVIS:** Thank you, both of you! This was an enlightening debate, I think. Let's turn this over to-- **<TRANSCRIPT ENDS>** [[/div]]